Leadership, Team Trust & Psychological Safety (Part 1)

Cale

Corbett: Hey folks, KL here, episode whatever now that I know. I'm r truly excited, and everyone says this, but I truly am excited today. I've got the first guest on our podcast for Mindy and me. I met this man Terry here, literally met him in a coffee shop here in Oklahoma City, gosh, about a month or two ago, two months ago, something like that. you and I had connected on LinkedIn. You or I one saw something about what the other guy was posting. It's like, man, I gotta talk to this guy. He's cool. and I think it was you who said, Hey, why don't we go get actual coffee in a place versus this virtual coffee thing? We live in the same darn town, right a you know, across town from one another. But I mean, come on. So you and I met downtown, Terry

Hale: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, a twenty minute drive for Cale

Corbett: yeah, on either side. We met downtown at what's it what's the place called? So we'll give a little pitch for these guys. Where where'd we meet? Coffee. Terry

Hale: Coffee Slingers, I believe is the name of it. Yep, down it's in an automobile alley. Yeah, an automobile alley here Cale

Corbett: Coffee Slingers. Yeah, down there on Broadway. Yeah, yeah. Terry

Hale: in Oklahoma City. Cale

Corbett: That's right. So if if the folks from Coffee Slingers are listening, we'll take we'll take free coffee. Yeah, yeah, why Terry

Hale: Ha ha. Cale

Corbett: not? But all kidding aside, so yeah, you and I met face to face as human beings and had a really good conversation. And we just did it again last week. and when I when we were talking, I said, Hey man, if if you're okay with it, I'd love for you to come on here and talk about your experience, talk about what you and I talked about as our you know, our our pasts and how they've overlapped and our, you know, common sensibilities and you name it. You know, we sit and talk two or three hours at a time. If we'd probably still be talking right now if we had didn't have to go home and, you know, make dinner or whatever, right? So anyway, so before we get rolling, I'd love for you to kind of tell the the folks who were on about you. you know, give us your bio, your history, tell us all about Terry and then what you've been doing, you know, most recently with your life and how you're how you're driving what you care about. Terry

Hale: Yeah, sure. So yeah, so I'm a a product manager, tech guy, IT person, tech leader, I guess, and consultant based here in Oklahoma City. the last six a little over six years, I was at Oracle working on their Net Suite product as a senior product manager. I worked on everything from their e-commerce platform to their cut CRM platform, payments, site management tools, which is basic that's the which is like their their content management system that they had Cale

Corbett: Mm. Terry

Hale: and payments and sales order just did a a lot of different things and and then my role was eliminated in August 2025 during their layoffs that they did then sort of just a little over a year ago. and really since then I've just kind of been publishing kind of investigative analysis on on Oracle's finances, its AI build out. all the different waves of layoffs both at Oracle and at other companies and and how they're attributing it that to to AI. you know, it's kind of wild. I th I was kind of blessed by the LinkedIn algorithm. So some of my stuff that I've posted it's it's reached close to to half a million readers on LinkedIn. you know one of my more popular pieces was one that was called the They told us AI did it. Cale

Corbett: Ha ha ha. Terry

Hale: then it was basically on how companies were disclosing their their AI driven layoffs. and then I was also a member of the of a a a a group called Sweet Escape. It's basically a private Slack community for Cale

Corbett: Mm. Terry

Hale: for formal Oracle employees that were laid off. and like I said through that LinkedIn I just ended up you know I wasn't the one that started it, but I ended up being one one of the most visible people pointing laid off colleagues towards it on LinkedIn. and so I think when I joined the group they had 40 people. I brought twenty f about twenty-five people from a group that I had Started. and then we kind of merged together to the the Slack group. And it's now, I think we crossed 3,700 people this week, after the most Cale

Corbett: Wow. Terry

Hale: recent layoffs that happened on Monday. and we yeah, we're just kind of a network where, you know, we trade job leads, referrals, recruiter intel, advice on navigating the exit process at Oracle because there there's a still a lot of confusion whenever whenever that happens, one it's kind of a shock. you know, to your system when it happens to you. and then two, Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Yeah. Terry

Hale: just the communication isn't always super clear. and it varies so much by location. So we've got people from all over the world, all over the US, and you know, even in each country and each state handles you know, what type of notice, you know, they need to have through the Warren Act and and those types of things separately. Yeah. Cale

Corbett: regulatory yeah, yeah. Terry

Hale: And it's a good place to know to to s to swap notes as well. And in just a safe space to vent, you know, that's one of the reasons why we keep it just the people that were at Oracle that were laid off is because we want that to be a a safe space to vent. We don't want, you know, s a bunch of recruiters in there that are then, you know, if somebody's venting about their their experience because it's, you know, very raw emotions. We don't want that to get, you know, held against somebody by a recruiter. So we try to keep it as a Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: safe space. because, you know, nobody should have to go through that alone, you know, in in their in their strength and numbers. you know, before Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Well I as I was saying I I I yeah. sorry, I was gonna I was gonna s I was gonna throw a c a kudo your way, but I'll let you finish your s I'll let you finish first. Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: Yeah. And then, you know, before Oracle, I spent quite a few years in marketing and and doing ad agency work, including at Ackerman McQueen, the largest ad agency here in Oklahoma, another digital agency that was called Big Wing. I've led sales and marketing at a a company called Allshore now it's called Allshore Virtual Talent, selling outsourced IT services. I've ran assets protection and food operations as a as an executive team leader for Target, the Super Target in Edmund. Cale

Corbett: yeah, yeah. Terry

Hale: And then you know, and even before that, I you know, my first leadership position was which was interesting, I got it before I actually had graduated college was helping manage operations at a multi facility parking operation in downtown Oklahoma City. so I handled a lot of the event parking. So if there was cart concerts and events, I was responsible for making sure it was staffed and counting money and and all that stuff. But you I led really cr very diverse group of people everywhere from People that were just out of high school, all the way to folks that had retired and were, you know, old enough at the time to potentially be a grandparent. and and learned Cale

Corbett: All right. Terry

Hale: a lot both there and at Target about leading leadership. and then I've got a B a bachelor's in business administration and marketing from University Central Oklahoma. Cale

Corbett: Okay. Terry

Hale: you know, and I'm not digging in through like Oracle ten Ks and and promoting the Slack group. I'm I'm usually, you Cale

Corbett: huh. Terry

Hale: know, in the garage or or tinkering around on some piece of technology or playing with my three D printers or or something like that. Cale

Corbett: and we'll talk too, now not to be a spoiler, but let's also talk too about the I don't know, I forget what you call it now, the the site you're standing up to eventually help people Terry

Hale: yeah. Cale

Corbett: offload cool things they've collected to buyers who are looking for those exact cool things is the way I understand Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: it. There's a a bring together there. Terry

Hale: Yeah, kinda close. So I'm really built it more for myself. It's kind of a tool to help me build a route to go to different like 'cause I'm I'm into vintage video games and and collectibles. I was one of those fortunate kids that their mom didn't throw away all their toys when they're when they moved out to college. you know, and since the layoff looking for places to make income and especially with AI these AI tools that are out, I was like, I should make something that would c one, I can use to help me price my collections and other collections that I buy quickly and efficiently. And then two, as I'm going around to different pawn shops and thrift stores and things. basically build a route so I can be like, okay, on Monday I'm gonna hit Yukon. On Tuesday I'm gonna hit Edmund and not have to waste a bunch of gas money and and be super inefficient, you know, in that way. but yeah I'd love to talk about that and just some of the other random stuff I vibe code. Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Now I was gonna say I think we're gonna randomize all over the place, but at the very least, we we got a good I think we got a good strong sense of who you are. And I you know, I've I've got competing things in my head about what I wanna ask you versus what we'll just sort of let l leak out as we talk, 'cause we we covered a lot Terry

Hale: Yeah, yeah. Cale

Corbett: of ground in our conversations and I and I love it. I don't wanna hamstring us too bad. at the same time this could be a three hour episode if we weren't careful. Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: we'll just we'll do this more and more. What I'll do at the end is is I'll post you know in some show notes and whatnot, I'll post your LinkedIn profile there. So anybody who heard you talking about you, whether it was from that, hey, I would love to be a member of the Oracle community because I was affected by these these layoffs at Oracle, and I'd love to have that community that you were just talking about. and then you and also too, anybody who wants to get and see you on LinkedIn to talk with you about. anything else you're doing, whether it's the collecting and the and the the sell, you know, anything. or heaven forbid they say, you know what, I saw this guy on the show and I like the sound of what he's doing. I'd like to interview him for this position I need to fill because what we've got, you and I, and this is not to turn into a pitch about us as candidates for anything, but so often you and I've been hearing about that no one is standing out in the market when they're interviewing or when they're sharing their resumes. And recruiters are having a hard time finding these people to hire. And I'm sitting there thinking there are people like yourself, me, and many others who are really interesting mixes of different careers and different fields and different strengths and things of that nature that are not they're unique, Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: frankly. And I think any chance you and I have to boost our signal for us and for other people who are in that unique combination category, it will outweigh some of that AI. you know, some of that vanilla azation, Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: if you will, that AI does to us, you know. Terry

Hale: Yeah, well absolutely. And I think people like us too, you know, I've I've never had the same job title more than once. In most places, you know, I'd be there for Cale

Corbett: Is that right? Yeah. Terry

Hale: for two or three years and and I'd get bored and and need to find something else. or feel like I'd done, you know, all I could do for my career there and and decide to to check something else out. And and it it's really hard to put people like us into a specific box because We can kinda work you know, what is it? Bruce Lee that said, you know, be like water, you know, flow into the shape of the cup and all that kind of stuff and and you know, that's Cale

Corbett: Yeah. General, they they they'd call us yeah, they would call us generalists. And I don't know about you, and I and I think I think I do know because you and I talked about it initially when we when we met the first time. I have found this interesting tension in the job market between recruiters and hiring managers, and companies are looking for these pink unicorns with a yellow horn. Are you looking for this specific right? and at so that on one hand, folks like you and I who have been capable, outstanding generalists throughout our careers in different in different aspects, we are finding ourselves being missed. I think the signal of a generalist is being missed, and we've had to really double down and and echo the signals that they're looking for that fit that unicorn. you know, vertical, if you will, that they're that they're sourcing for. I I don't Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: know if the pendulum is ever going to swing back to appreciating generalists or not. But I will say over the last say six months or so, it it just really the first the first three months it took me to learn that I was not going to be able to be successful marketing myself as a generalist anymore. And then I had to spend the Terry

Hale: Mm-hmm. Cale

Corbett: next bit of time honing down my message, at least of who I am. Not in reality who I am, but how I'm portraying myself in the public to get their attention. And that man, that was a shift and a struggle, I've got to tell you. And I don't know if you had an Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: echo of that yourself. Terry

Hale: yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, because there's that saying a jackfall trade's master of none, but the part that they everybody always forgets that it's part of that quote is is oftentimes better than than a master of of one. Cale

Corbett: Yes. Terry

Hale: because you know, people like us were able to to easily take all that contextual knowledge that we have from these other places, you know, like leadership experience can translate almost universally. you know, whether you were leading like you know, leading parking operations or retail operations or, you know, a a a technical team, there when you're leading humans, there's certain pieces of that that are always going to be foundational. You know, treat treat the people that you work for. You know, I always say, I can't remember where I heard it wasn't a quote that I came up with, but it was something that really resonated with me and kind of helped me describe my leadership style is that you know, my team doesn't work for me. I work for my team. I'm I'm you I I should be the least important person on my team. and likely Cale

Corbett: That's right. Terry

Hale: I and honestly, I shouldn't be the smartest person on my team. you know, I also had Cale

Corbett: Right there. Terry

Hale: a saying that I would tell people it actually made one of the one of the people that worked for me kind of upset him when he first heard me say it until I took the time to explain what I meant, which is, you know, if my goal is to make myself replaceable, you know, 'cause if I'm not replaceable, I'm not promotable and and everybody should be re should should. look at themselves that way as as look, you know, if you're a leader, you need to be grooming your replacement so you can move to the next to, you know, to the next level. Don't see don't hire don't neglect to hire somebody that you think might be a, you know, quote unquote threat to to Cale

Corbett: Yes. Terry

Hale: you. because if if you if you lead them and mentor them right, they can be a huge asset and they could be your pathway to your own promotion in the future as well as while giving them one. Cale

Corbett: Yeah they can look, they can make you look better. They can shine the light on your leadership skills that you were just talking about. Exactly that. There's a balance, there's a dance, there's a yeah, it's it's it's never binary, but you're absolutely right. And there are you know been books written on it and and conversations and pluses and minuses. there I want to kind of go to a couple of things you said there. You talked to me, and it's it's two things. It's leading and it's humans, right? And it's that lead it's that leading of humans that we it's it's that two part that I think people they'll either do the leading or they'll do the human. You don't Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: see as much as we would like people leading humans or people remembering as a leader, you're leading humans. You're not leading yourself, you're not leading cats. She's a beautiful cat, but you're not leading cats, right? You're not leading AI, you're leading people. Terry

Hale: Yep. Cale

Corbett: I I wanna talk this so it's one of those ones where I, you know, in that whole brand of now that I know, if you will, I wanna Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: I want to talk for a minute about the part and you and you talked to me offline before we came on the air. You were talking about in that parking garage time where and I don't want to spoil it your story, but I learned something, and I say this facetiously with tongue in cheek. I learned that there was a need for lead don't laugh, there was a need for leadership. in the parking garage industry, because as a person who goes to concerts or to this or that where the guy with the orange vest and the then the the mit full of tickets and he's got my dollars in his hand and his n tickets in this hand, the last thing I'm thinking is what are the leadership skills or what are what are his leadership methods? Last thing I'm ever thinking Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: about, I promise you, it's like I've got to figure out where I'm gonna park and who's not gonna clobber my car, you know. So Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: I wanted you to tell me more about that part where, hey, Terry as a human, I learned a little bit about leadership when I was managing a garage a parking garage. Yeah, tell me about Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: that. Terry

Hale: Yeah. So one of the I so yeah, one that I actually lucked out and I ended up getting that role about six months before I graduated college. So I I basically graduated college into a leadership position, which is somewhat rare for people. Cale

Corbett: yeah. Terry

Hale: And and I was I was kind of put in charge of you know running all these parking parking operations, but it it's really a people operation. You know, I've had depending on the size of the the event, I could have anywhere from, you know, ten people, we call them flaggers. So that's the guy in the orange vest that's directing you where to go. Then we've got the people either at the front of the lot or the back of the lot that's that's taking your money. So that we had the cashiers. And at time we were a completely cash based business. We didn't take credit cards or anything like that. Cale

Corbett: Mm. Terry

Hale: And I was leading people anywhere from they were, you know, because I think our the lowest age we would hire was eighteen. so, you know, it people that, you know, had just graduated high school and this might might be their first their first job ever, to people that, hey, I'm retired and I'm I'm a I'm a military veteran and I just need, you know, something for, you know, either some just either something to do or a little bit of extra spending money. and so they're and and from all walks of life. and so, you know, there was a lot to learn there. And I think where I kind of realized that I was onto something with my leadership style was there was a he was an Air Force fetcher and had he'd worked at Tinker Air Force Base. I believe he worked he was a fireman at Tinker Air Force Base. And I Cale

Corbett: okay. Terry

Hale: remember I w when I left my role there to go to work at Target. you know, one of the things he said when I was doing when we were saying our goodbyes was he was like, You're you were the best manager I've ever had. Not one of the best, but he said like I was the best. You know, now he might have just been saying that to to make me, you know, to be n to be nice. But you know, I took that to heart and I was like, you know, I I always tried to treat people like humans because I've worked before that, you know, I worked retail jobs forever as as in high school and and college pay, you know, working my way through college. And I worked for some ex some some pretty deep good leaders and I worked for some really bad leaders. And I just remember I think I took more away from the bad leaders that I worked for than I did from the good ones because I'm like, if I'm ever in that position, I don't ever want to treat somebody like that, you know. you know, Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: there was especially in retail, there's so much of a you know, you you have to be there no matter what, you know, it's like, well, you know, one retail doesn't pay the greatest. you know, so you might have somebody that had a broke down car or maybe they can't afford child care and their kids sick and they so they're not at school is and you know, so I I was never one to like but some, you know, to to give somebody a hard time when they were, you know, if they had to call in because life happened. yeah, Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: it's gonna make things a little bit more difficult for me. but you know, we'll survive. You know, it's not like you know, it's gonna, you know, you know, and I would that be one thing like if like literally everybody called off, but that's a whole other emergency. And thankfully, I don't think Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: I've ever seen that happen in my career where you have. Everybody that you know, unless it's like a mass walkout. Yeah. Cale

Corbett: That would have been like a meteor strike. Right. I was to say, and here's the deal. You're not you're not, for example, saying, look, you know, if this if this employee were he or she they were calling out on a frequent basis or their life was getting to the point where it was affecting their ability to come do their job. That's a different conversation than every so often life intrudes. Everyone's life intrudes on their job at some point, you know, all the time, if you will. So I I like the fact that you're like, look, hey, if humans have lives and there are things that get in the way. And it's as much about the it happens to leaders too. We're not immune to life. Right? Terry

Hale: Yep. Cale

Corbett: We just have we're most of us have been trained or conditioned to put like a veil in front of us to not let them see everything because as part of a leader, it's an inspiration, it's a it's a sales job, it's an it's a an encouragement job. And if we're too human. then they're then they're they don't view us as leaders. It's this interesting line that I've had to learn and relearn over the years on leadership detachment so that you can maintain your objectivity and you can be Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: a fair leader versus letting them remember there's a person in there underneath the tie or underneath the the the particular colored shirt or you know what have you that sets you Terry

Hale: Yeah. Yep. Cale

Corbett: apart visually from the from the rest. Yeah, one of the things I wanted to to to kind of in that same vein, you know, you would when we were talking about Target specifically the other day, there were a couple things you mentioned to me about what you were learning as a leader at Target that again, I'm like, how do I say this? There are things that the Target management training process Brings that I wasn't aware of. I'm like, I'll be darn, that's kind of cool. right. And then there were parts of the Terry trained himself and learned how to do these as a leader himself aspects that I thought, of course, were really awesome. So maybe share one or two of each of those, if you will, that those today, those in combination, are how Terry is the kind of leader he is. And maybe even, I think you talked to me about, you know. This one plus this one in turn, you carried forward into your design leadership career and you've used those techniques, I think you've said, to up to this day, right? Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: In combination, some some combination of all those in one way or the other is who you are as a leader today. So talk tell us, remind folks who weren't Terry

Hale: Sure. Cale

Corbett: in that conversation about that. Terry

Hale: Yeah. yeah, so the couple of things about Target, at least at the time I was hired, this would have been back in two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, I believe. so things may have changed since then. But one of the things, I was still early enough out of college because like I only worked at the parking garages for about a year. so I was basically six months post post college. whenever I got hired at Target. And one of the things that I found out that they really do heavily because I actually got hired through the campus recruitment program from the college at from UCO is they recruit heavily for leadership for from new college graduates for basically department level like salaried department managers so you have a target it's Cale

Corbett: okay. Yeah. Terry

Hale: in a way it's kind of like if you think even though I didn't serve in the military, I have a lot of friends and family that have and there's kind of two tracks. You have your commissioned officers, like your lieutenants and captains, and then you have, Cale

Corbett: Mm-hmm. Terry

Hale: you know, your your NCOs, like your Your sergeants, your master sergeants and chiefs and stuff like that. And at in Cale

Corbett: Right. Right. Terry

Hale: retail there, it was very much the same way. I would I would have basically been the equivalent of like a a second lieutenant fresh out of college. And Cale

Corbett: Right. Yep. Terry

Hale: you know, but I had people that were team leads, which would have they would have been like, you know, a master sergeant or a sergeant, you know, they'd been they'd maybe spent their whole career at Oracle, but I was still technically their leader. Cale

Corbett: Target. Terry

Hale: yeah, at Target. yeah, I get you, yeah. It's so Cale

Corbett: Gotcha, gotcha. You said it'll work on something. target. Yeah. That's a that's that's in the future. Yeah, yeah. Target. Yeah, sorry. Terry

Hale: And so yeah. and one of the things that they did what which and the reason why they did that is they wanted to make sure that they weren't having to train out retrain out what they would consider bad leadership habits. you know, because you you know, when you work at a different places, they all have different cultures and things. And so they found that the best way for them to get to build the the organization that they wanted was to get people before they had learned had enough time to learn a bunch of bad habits. The other thing that they did is before I was even ever I I went through about I think four to eight weeks of training before I even knew technically what department I was gonna actually be leading. so there was still it so during that and I think during that training time is partially when they kind of evaluate you know, are you gonna be are you gonna be one of the people that's really good at guest services? So are you gonna lead the the front end, the cashiers and things like that, or are you really good with logistical operations? And so you might lead the overnight logistics team. Which is a whole different Cale

Corbett: okay. Terry

Hale: type set of leadership skills because there's that that type of a a role, especially overnight logistics, attack attracts just a different type of employee. Cale

Corbett: yeah. Terry

Hale: or are you gonna be in and I got was fortunate. I say fortunate, it was a super cool experience as I got selected for loss prevention. so I basically ran all the loss prevention at the target. And a lot of people think, so you're just catching shoplifters. And it was like, no, it was it was that Cale

Corbett: That's what I said. Yeah. You corrected me. Terry

Hale: was actually the small one of the smallest parts of my job. in fact, I don't think during my two years. leading the assets protection at that target. I have I actually apprehended somebody on my own. Because Target's one that also crazy enough, at the time they were one of the few people that would actually still like lay hands on somebody, go handcuff them, take them to a booking room. And you know, so like we had a whole other set of training for like nonviolent intervention and like how to safely restrain somebody without them passing out or or, you know, so they could still breathe and stuff. yeah, it's pretty Cale

Corbett: Well that's good. I mean you don't wanna you don't wanna accidentally kill a shoplifter. That could look bad. Yeah no that's a bad look. Terry

Hale: Exactly. That's yeah, 'cause that's a whole lot. Yeah, 'cause one one shop something like that is not worth anybody's life. You know, it's not and so yep. Cale

Corbett: No, stuff is never where someone yeah, no, it's just stuff, you know. Terry

Hale: And so so yeah, so we they so basically and I think after that you got picked, then you went basically to your in-store training and you did like basically another li or you would go to another store and shadow somebody else in that role for I think it was at least another four to eight weeks, and then finally at that point you would basically be all right, you're now at your your own store. and Cale

Corbett: So like we're talking four or five months, you get hired, your day one, you begin like s if my math is any good, four or five months of intense education and training and and evaluation Terry

Hale: Yep. Cale

Corbett: or whatnot before they ever turn you loose on the unsuspecting public, or probably Terry

Hale: Yep. Cale

Corbett: more importantly, that your staff of experienced department heads, you know, I get or department leads, if you will. You know, I yeah. Terry

Hale: Yeah. Yeah. And they and they have, you know, and they're great too, because you get, you know, I I I still I think I still might have some of my old training binders, but I mean it's like three inches thick of just training manuals and processes and procedures. And that was one so one the there was two one thing I really learned at Target was the importance of documenting your processes and procedures and and whatnot. So that there was a Cale

Corbett: yeah, yeah. Terry

Hale: that there was a reference and then being familiar with them. You didn't have to know them. By heart. I there were certain things because it just happened enough often enough that you really needed to know, but you at least needed to know where to go and look that up. Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: and and and the importance of that was then all that stuff was repeatable. So if you go to a target, whether it's in Oklahoma City or California for the most part, you kind of know what type of experience you're gonna get. the other thing was was kind of trial by fire to some extent. In fact, there's one story that was probably one of the most impactful to me. I actually I've actually used it. the story in almost every single one of the one of those tell me about a time when type interview questions. Cale

Corbett: right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Terry

Hale: and I was I was what they call the leader on duty. So department regardless of what department you're in, usually you would have at least two or three shifts a week where for for ha at least half of the day you were the key carrying manager. So if there was you were basically responsible for everything that was going on in the store and and everybody in the store. So like I, you know, I might not be responsible for the specific numbers and In the electronics department, but I was responsible for making sure that that department was staffed on that day. you know, like if somebody called out or something like that. and then if there was a a a customer service issue that maybe somebody wasn't authorized or equipped to handle, I was usually the one of the first people that would get called to that. And there was an incident that happened. We had a somebody that at our guest services desk. and our our they called him a GSTL so guest service team lead had already basically told them no. I can't remember if it was something with a return or something or something. Cale

Corbett: yeah. Yeah. Terry

Hale: And you know, and that and then they and they they're like, I want to talk to the manager, you know. So of course I get called up. you know, and in that case, like my my GSTL, he was kind of following p the policy, but there was also enough wiggle room that I could potentially override him and I did Cale

Corbett: Mm-hmm. Terry

Hale: that. And I'm so thankful that he did this after they left and stuff. He's like, Hey, can I talk to you in the back for a minute? I was like, Yeah, sure. What's up? You know. And he basically said, He's like, Hey, he's like, I love you, I respect or not love you, but he's like, I really like you and I respect you, love working with you. he's Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: like, But whenever you do something like that, he's like, it actually makes my job harder in the future and your job harder in the future, because now that person knows all they have to do to get what they want is they just have to call the manager and it's gonna take you or whoever else is away from that. and I was like, you know what? You are absolutely right. On on that issue. Like, I mean, on on the spot, I was like, you know what? One, thank you for for having the courage to point that out to me. two, you're absolutely right. I said, So here's what I'll do. I said, you know, unless it's something crazy agrarious, I will never override you or somebody else again in front of a c you know, a customer. Like if you've told them no and you're technically following policy, even if I don't agree with with it. I'll I'll I'll back you up and then afterwards we can do just like you and I are doing right now. If I disagree, we can come back and we can talk it out and we know what to do next time. And he was like, perfect. and Cale

Corbett: Praise in public, I mean, leadership, think about it. He I'll I'll come back to his leadership ex expression in a minute, but your leadership expression, you just you just laid it out there as hey, you praise in public and you counsel in private. So, like, or you disagree Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: in private. And this the same flip side, he as a as a a team member of yours, he it follows the same pattern. He would say, You know, you got it, no problem, we'll we'll process the refund, and then he will come. After the fact and say, hey Terry, man, I I not my call, but da da da. There was a lot, there really was a lot of courage in my mind to what he did. And most remarkable to me about that story was just the sheer, and I believe it happened pretty much almost like you just described it. Because I've I've I've had people that I've led before that were so tight on how things are supposed to go that they could tell you that plainly. why they did it and the impact of of the choice you made on their ability to to to be effective. It's like that is so liberating when you've got a team member who can lay it out for you that plainly, especially when you're a brand new leader and you're petrified and you can't you don't feel like you can ask for help. So anytime he gives you a freebie lesson learned like that on the spot that you can apply, dude, that's gold. And then your intuition to apply it in the in the in you know in the meantime and to tell him how he did well and you learned also gold right I mean that was a like you said that's a fantastic story to tell in any of you any interview session or man if you're teaching people leadership that story is portable as a teaching tool as well right as as I'm sure you know. I can't even I can't even imagine. Yeah now that you know yeah yeah Terry

Hale: Absolutely. Yeah, and now that I know that, you know, how you know, now that I know that somebody somebody took that courage, you know, I've made you know, one of the things I also did is like, okay, what what did I do that gave one, he was he was somebody that it wouldn't have mattered who it was. He was the type of person that would would have spoke spoke up and done it respectively. So I I don't think there was necessarily anything that I did personally that made him feel comfortable enough to doing doing that. because I think he would have done it anyway, just cause he was that that type of a person. but I got to thinking too after that, I was like, okay, what can I do to make sure that happens more for somebody that maybe doesn't won't maybe doesn't have the same confidence or or and you know, and that's what when I start thinking of creating, you know, psychological safety for your team, being able Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: to, you know, you I don't want to be surrounded by a bunch of yes men or yes women, you know, whenever I'm whenever I'm leading a team. I want people, you know, one of the things I whenever I would interview people going forward, both there and even espe and especially when I was leading technical teams, was, you know, even though it's not mentioned in the job description, one of your core roles is to disagree with me whenever you whenever you you see something that, you know, if I'm trying to push us to do something that you don't agree with, it's like 'cause it, you Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: usually would mean one of two things. Either, either I'm not communicating effectively and sharing the why that why we have to do this this way, or you're Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: truly or which is was also just as often as the other was they saw would see something that I was missing because they had a lot more lived experience in in that realm. you know, like Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: like at Target, for example, we had like I said most of our team, most of the team leads had been there much longer than I had been there. and they'd seen so many different rollouts, both fails, failures and successes and stuff. And so I kind of made it my mission, like I'm gonna be friends or not friends, but you know, I'm gonna make sure that I'm I'm approachable by people that that that I'm I'm leading so that way they feel safe enough to bring issues to me before they before they blow up into a a a bigger catastrophic problem that well I I don't think there's too many problems that are truly that you truly can't eventually solve. There it's definitely much e simpler to solve issues if you catch them as as early as possible. Cale

Corbett: Early. I was gonna say, man, there you continue to share. I'm gonna say we we are quickly becoming a class on leadership, which is awesome. You were talking about a couple things there that I I teach to students and I teach and I you know, they come up all the time. And it this some of this is even program management, right? It's let's get to the root of the problem as early as possible because it's still cheaper to solve than it is afterward, right? give your leader a heads up as soon as you can. Don't let them be surprised by a situation, right? Help your leader see around corners, right? And the flip side to that is as a leader, like you said at the beginning of that conversation, that part of the conversation, make it safe for your team members to tell you when maybe you have an improvement to make or Make it safe for them to tell you, hey, we are about to have a a landmine here, and I think it might be my fault, but I wanted to tell you about it. Right. Or Terry

Hale: Yep. Cale

Corbett: the bosses of from corporates about to come down. You better go make sure that we look like we know what we're doing. Whatever it is. One Terry

Hale: Mm-hmm. Cale

Corbett: of those is safety, the other is inspiration, right? make it safe for them to tell you that they think they have a problem and it may be their fault, right? Because now you've got the opportunity to train, retrain. strengthen your own leadership, whatever the whatever the outcome is. And if you've led them well, they are gonna watch your back. Right? Because let's be Terry

Hale: Yeah, absolutely. Cale

Corbett: honest, they whether or not they like you, they respect you enough and you do enough for them that they don't want you to be replaced by some guy who could suck. I mean at the very least, let's be cynical. Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: It could be something as as good simple as, hey man, you know what you're the devil we know is pretty good versus God knows what we'd get if if Terry got fired, right? Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: So whatever the magic sauce is for them, inspire that as a leader, right? You nailed to me, you nailed both halves very well. if I had a role to give you, yeah, I would have hired you about five minutes ago, you know. so yeah. Terry

Hale: I appreciate that. Well and