Career Inflection Points & Finding Purpose (Part 2)

Cale

Corbett: and this is not about we don't necessarily have to turn this into a training session or anything like that, but I'm I'm sort of curious, putting your Putting yourself in your time machine and flashing forward, let's say 10 years, right? into your design career. I have to think that you ran into situations where what you learned in Target in the parking garage and those kind of things were applicable. But I think also too, and maybe this might be even more fascinating, where did you find yourself in that new in these new positions where you had to learn a whole new thing? Because the stuff you learned before didn't apply, and you ran into a whole new learning opportunity for yourself. You know, what did that look Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: like? Terry

Hale: man, almost every single job I've had has has been a new learning. Cause like I've never had the same job title twice. you know, after Target, I th that I ended up having to have knee surgery, it was off for about six weeks. and it was around the time my daughter, she was about six months old and I like, Man, I kinda like this being home on the evenings and weekends thing. So I started looking for another Cale

Corbett: Hm. Yeah. Yeah. Terry

Hale: role and I was like, Well, I need to see if I can find something where maybe I can, you know, quote unquote use my degree. And ended up falling into working at t at a company that that was the offshore the offshore global resources at the time. Now they're offshore virtual staffing. and I I ended up and it was really just through sheer persistency. I don't think they they even told me later on that like I wasn't their first choice, but I was the one that was the most persistent w you know, and following Cale

Corbett: Huh. Hey, you know what? That works. Terry

Hale: up and stuff. And Because you and partially just because I didn't have a a lot of you know, actual sales experience. I mean, I'd done sales like at Comp USA and Sears, you know, working in apartment stores, but I hadn't, you know, sold IT services before. But you know, I would one, I was curious about stuff and willing to learn. And so yeah, I ended up tak leading a s I had a small sales team, but basically took on their entire sales and marketing operations for their their outsource web development services. And I basically had to learn how one I had to learn like how that business even works. so part of it was asking, you know, the people that that were, you know, the the owner, you know, like, okay, how does this work? Because I think at the time when I started, we had they had two offshore development centers. One was in Lahore, Pakistan, and another in Islamabad. and then that later on they opened open up in Karachi. And and then Then also working with the cause I had basically two sales guys that they were actually in over in Pakistan, but they were they were the ones that were doing the sales. It kind of one learned what they were doing and and how they were doing it and then find where I could plug gaps. You know, like one of the things that one of the first changes I made was, you know, it was all they were basically my cold callers. and then I would Cale

Corbett: Mm. Terry

Hale: be the one that would come back behind them and close the deal. But when they would send out these cold emails and cold messaging, they were sending out these like huge like just novels of emails. I think just trying to get as much information out as they could. And I was like, hey, we we I was kind of started leaning on some of my old marketing classes and stuff. It was like, hey, we gotta Cale

Corbett: Mm. Terry

Hale: we gotta change that up completely. I was like, we need to make one, we need Cale

Corbett: Right. Terry

Hale: that message to just, you know, if you're finding a job ad or a listing or somebody that's looking for that, that resource, because we did a lot of our prospecting at the time on Craigslist of all places, looking for people that were looking to hire either a a a part a full-time developer or they had like a large development project that they were they were working on. I was like, hey, what it we need to we need to shorten our messaging. You just it just needs to be just enough to get them to want to talk to us. It doesn't you don't have to give them our whole our whole spiel, but just it could just just make it as simple as, hey, I saw your posting. I I think I might have a solution to your to your problem. Do you mind having a quick phone call with me? and that was so much more responsive because almost every other like big offshore outsourcing development group, one, they were they weren't they didn't have like a US-based operations center. and so they didn't understand the business culture here. And so we would that was one way we set ourselves apart is we weren't sending out those crazy long spam messages. I mean, technically I guess they probably Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: could have fallen under spam because they weren't asked for. But we also wouldn't keep emailing somebody if they Yeah, they were targeted. And if somebody said, Hey, I Cale

Corbett: But they were talk but they were targeted, you know. Terry

Hale: don't want to hear from you, I'm not interested, you know, we took them off our list. We don't, you know, 'cause 'cause Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: that's the biggest way to ruin your reputation on something like that is because I know I don't know how many times I've gotten something Cale

Corbett: And and now you get fined. Terry

Hale: like that. Yeah. Yeah, the can spam act will get ya. And Cale

Corbett: Sorry. I mean yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Terry

Hale: and so yeah, so we changed that up and that ended up working. And then I ended up leaving there working for a a company that was actually one of my clients basically leading his developers that he had gotten from us. so he I think he had like three or four people on his team. and and kind of with the blessing of them, You know, I went to work for him and I ended up was initially just going to do like project management, but then I like I started getting digging more into the I want to learn how to do some of this development stuff so I can speak about it better. you know, Cale

Corbett: Right. Terry

Hale: and basically ended up, you know, my my actual development skills are probably junior level at best, on a on a good day, but the ability to kind of jump into a an existing Cale

Corbett: Mm. Terry

Hale: problem and and come at it from a different approach, kind of that beginner's luck in a way. that's why it's Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: gonna be so successful is because They haven't been they haven't seen all the pitfalls. They don't have a lot of preconceived notions of how something should be done over there. And so sometimes they can come in with a completely new insight. Cale

Corbett: You don't know your ignorance protects you from knowing what's possible or knowing what's easy or hard. Yeah. Blissful ignorance Terry

Hale: Yep. Cale

Corbett: is is not just safety, sometimes it's creativity, you know. So Terry

Hale: Yeah, exactly. And you know, I did that for a little bit and then I ended up freelancing for a while and did made a I did a big project for Ackerman and McQueen and they ended up hiring me full time. learned a lot there because there I ended up doing data analytics and stuff like that, which I hadn't really done before. I mean I'd looked at you know Excel spreadsheets, but you know, I was Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: looking at all this web traffic data and and all their marketing data and and stuff like that and and trying to coalesce it all into like one big report. So I learned a lot there. I didn't I actually didn't lead anybody directly there, but I h helped manage some processes. and then realized I I want to Cale

Corbett: Let me stop let me stop you. Let me stop you there for a second. I don't I don't want to be rude, but I what I what I want Terry

Hale: Yeah, yeah. Cale

Corbett: to t you just you just hit a signal, you just share something that's that's a a a big th thing in my in my brain in my world when I try to to propagate in people. And that's you know, you said I you know, I didn't I didn't lead people in that role but and it's that but part that I wanna talk about. And and you tell me if your experience and your experience may not align with this, but I I imagine it does. And it's I have told people for years, and I have to tell myself every so often, even if you're in an IC position, you can still be a leader in any number of ways. Thought Terry

Hale: Yep. Cale

Corbett: leader, a leader in terms of the example you set, knowledge leader, just you name it, a leader in the sense of. Ex inspiring people, keeping them from going nuts when management is being stupid. Heaven Terry

Hale: Yep. Cale

Corbett: forbid. Right. And so I didn't want you to push past that part where it's like, you know, you know, I was a leader here and a leader there, but I didn't really lead. It's like, you know, or did you? You know, and so I you know, Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: this yeah. Terry

Hale: Yeah. And it was very much yeah, and you very much like for it when you're an individual contributor, you you you don't always have the authority, the leadership authority. so you have to lead through influence. Kind of like you said, being the thought leader or the subject matter expert or or just the guy that's the go-to guy when when stuff hits the fan and they need somebody Cale

Corbett: Yep. Terry

Hale: that can that can muster resources or leverage resources. And yeah, and that was very much true there. In fact, there was I remember shortly after I had started there. have them having a data and analytics program to the extent that they were trying to boot it up with us. I say us, it was kind of funny. My wife actually worked there before me. So I technically worked under her. She was she was technically my boss. Cale

Corbett: yeah? Terry

Hale: which which was which was awesome because it we could cut through a lot of the the the crap, so to speak. You know, like we didn't have to worry. We we knew at the end of the day we both had each other's like we just intrinsically knew we had each other's best interests at heart. Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: and wanted each other to succeed so we could We didn't have to, you know, try to you know, lead through manipulation or anything like that. We could just be very direct with each other. Actually, it took a lot of people Cale

Corbett: Did it did it d did it get weird coming home? I mean, 'cause I I can only imagine y you worked and since you it sounds like you guys weren't like in the same department, were you but you weren't like she she wa i she was in your line but separated by Terry

Hale: Yeah, she was in she was in we weren't separated at all. We were basically for a long time, we were the only two people in our department. And so Cale

Corbett: wow, how did you okay, so how did how did you keep it from getting weird when y'all got home? Did you just actively leave work at work and say, look, during the windshield time we we cut over to home mode and we're married mode? How did you how did y'all navigate without telling marriage secrets, did y'all navigate that well or did you, you know? Terry

Hale: I don't so it yeah it was in it was interesting because yeah it was interesting because there wasn't a whole because we we ended work we I mean we worked some long hours there it was a really demanding demanding role we had some extremely demanding clients as well I won't go into all of those just because it's a whole that's all I could do a whole book on that. But but yeah we had but honestly there wasn't a ton of separation some some of it was natural some of it when we got home We might still be doing some work while we were at home trying to get some stuff done as well. but Cale

Corbett: Hmm. Yeah. Terry

Hale: I think a big part of it was yeah, I don't know. I think we just kind of made it we weren't we weren't gonna let it necessarily impact our, you know, we weren't gonna let our home life impact our work. Like if we had something happen at home that we're where there was tension, we didn't mu we just kind of made it a habit not to let that cross. It was it was really all about Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: any tensions that happen, not letting those cross the barrier. So if we had a disagreement at work on something, we'd we'd just and we just knew not to bring it home and and vice versa. and Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: I th and but it wasn't something that we like I don't think at least at not at first was something that we consciously did. I think it was and part of it we were we both we just kind of we click anyway. Like we we we're interested in a lot of the same types of things when it comes to like technology and and and and things like that. And so it was kind of a smooth transition from times. Usually if it was at home we might brainstorm about Cale

Corbett: yeah. Terry

Hale: about stuff or we could even lean on each other like man so and so was a real a hole in that meeting what weren't they yeah they were out of line. and it was Yeah Cale

Corbett: As long as the so and so wasn't you, you know. All right. Terry

Hale: and and it was nice too 'cause like at work, you know, We could help each other as well. you know, like if we were in a meeting, you know, one of the things we, you know, there was oftentimes we'd openly disagree with each other in a meeting. so in fact, a lot of people that it would be a surprise to them later on when they actually found out that we were married. because we didn't Cale

Corbett: yeah. Terry

Hale: we didn't act like we were married when we were at work. We were another coworker. But they were also it Cale

Corbett: That's good. Terry

Hale: also kind of took them back at how direct we were willing to be with each other at work. Like we kind of we were able to cut through Cale

Corbett: yeah. Terry

Hale: a lot of the normal Which they're not a bad thing necessarily to have in certain areas, especially for team cohesion, but we were just able to to get to solutions quicker because we didn't have to do a lot of the the preamble of, hey, I really respect you as a person, blah, blah, blah. You know, that was just already inherent Cale

Corbett: Ha ha ha. Terry

Hale: and we knew each we knew that. and so we would just get straight to the to the problem, you know, and trying to solve it. and it and it paid off really well because she was there for a while before I was. And I remember one instance, we since data was new. I know there was a little bit of worry on their their their development team that was building these websites and platforms for their their clientele. They were really worried because they knew we were technical and we, you know, we could see through, you know, if there was s something that they that we we were starting to gain enough influence that if we if we didn't do it properly and as a partnership, we could make their their job much more difficult than it needed to be. and so I remember at first, especially Cale

Corbett: yeah. Yeah. Terry

Hale: in certain roles, like there can there was a lot of like. little a decent amount of siloing and they were very hesitant at first to like cooperate us like, hey, we need you to add this measurement Cale

Corbett: yeah. Terry

Hale: tool onto this platform so we can do data and stuff on it. you know, because they had for a long time they didn't they weren't used to there being, you know, data driven decisions being made at this place. And I remember I ended up having to have a Cale

Corbett: right. Terry

Hale: call with with one of the leaders on that team. And I was like, I was like, hey, I like, I I know you're worried about this. It's like I have no desire to make girls life more difficult than it needs to be. you know, I'm not looking I'm not looking to be a glory hog or anything like that. I I said, but I've got people asking me for results on stuff that I'm doing. And if we can work together, I'll make sure that we we we'll we'll work together. So if there's something where I'm like, I'll come to you first, like if I'm like, hey, we need to change all this up, you know, I'm not gonna just do that. You know, even though I might know it's feasible from my perspective, you know, I don't have all the information you have, so it might not be feasible. So why don't we kind of work together and help each other out to kind of give each other you know, we it can be kind of a win-win Cale

Corbett: They're Terry

Hale: and and after that kind of level setting call where I had, you know, I was very upfront. I like, you know, you know, I'm not I'm not here to make your life harder, but I I do have deliverables that I'm being held accountable to that I that I need to make sure Cale

Corbett: Right. Terry

Hale: to do. And after that we I mean we had a fantastic working relationship with that group after we had those conversations. Cale

Corbett: I see that's you've we've said several times there are things that you could you could deep dive on and these are books or things like that. I'm as a friend of yours, I'm gonna challenge you to write these down and start fleshing these out. and I'm and I'm actually sort of not kidding. These themselves are podcast worthy, these are blog worthy, these are LinkedIn post worthy, these are you name it, the stuff that you're The stuff that you're sharing here is very practical. And I and I and I say this with respect. It's very common sense. but as we know, common sense is not so common. But what's even better about it is it's universally applicable. And I'll be honest, the last thing I'll say about it is it's easy for people to apply. You know, there's just this normal guy in Oklahoma City who is saying some stuff that I needed to hear. Okay, that's really okay. That's clear. That's easy. I'm making this too hard, you know. it doesn't have to be complicated to be successful. So I challenge you to Terry

Hale: Yeah, well Cale

Corbett: get that on paper, man. Terry

Hale: and you say it talk about common sense. So there was a it was I was actually really fortunate both when I was at all shore and then the company I went to after that, that was kind of the the web development company. They actually ended up ha at at having the same they had brought in an outside like business coach basically. and he would give presentations and one of the things he always saw he's all this stuff, he's like it's it's you're once you hear it, it's gonna he called them blinding flashes of the obvious. Cale

Corbett: Ha ha I like that. I'm gonna I'm gonna remember that one. Terry

Hale: And and yeah, and that's stuck with me. Yeah, 'cause sometimes when you're so deep in the weeds and your and your own problems and stuff, sometimes that com you you'll sometimes you it just can c drive you a little nuts and you might forget some of those Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: fundamental common sense things. And it's not a it's not an indictment of of somebody as a leader because they they didn't remember it in the moment. It's just there's so much I mean, world we live in today there's so much information overload and and expectations are so high for people that You know, sometimes you need somebody to kinda give you that blinding flash of the obvious and remind you of it to to jump into it. Cale

Corbett: Let me share something with you. Let me share something with you that's gonna be designed to make you feel better about you and your wife. Now so Mind so the premise of this the premise of this podcast, if you if you look at the the I don't know if you want to call it the description, the blurbs, if you will, the the titles and things of that nature. I'm not I'm not a podcaster by profession, as you can tell. But the idea is one of the setups, if you will, for Mindy and me is that we have been, because of COVID and the and the nature of our jobs and things like that. We've had the privilege of working from home now for like six or seven years each, Terry

Hale: Yep. Cale

Corbett: and which is a good thing, right? I mean, it it keeps you from having to drive and all that. No one, you know, I think most people are like, man, that's cool. Well, what we've been able to learn, the hard way and the less hard way from working together literally, you know, fifteen, twenty feet apart in different home offices, is we don't have that windshield time. You know, we didn't have Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: that. and so there's that little there's that little distinction. one of the things, and this is goes back to now that I know premise, one of the things that we also learned, again, this is really not of this is one of those brilliant flashes of how did we not know that? up to a slight pivot Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: of your of yours. our own experiences and what we do for a living overlapped more strongly. than we and and we knew. And it's only been Terry

Hale: Yep. Cale

Corbett: probably the last nine months, six to nine months, where she and I realized just how much it overlapped in terms of, you know, hey, so she's revenue cycle management. I'm program, you know, I started out as program and my focus is on recovery for ops and strategy and, you know, how do you keep the wheels on the bus and how do you get the wheels back on the bus and that sort of thing. She's all about how do people who give you a service, healthcare, how do I get them paid? Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: How do I get the doctors and nurses and providers paid as quickly as possible from the insurance companies? And in that's well, think about that. There's a strong operations area the area there too, right? Yeah. Terry

Hale: Yeah, my wife and I the same way because she's so she's got her master's degree in epidemiology, and with a focus on biostatistics, which is data analysis. And then I remember when Cale

Corbett: Right. Terry

Hale: I started working at some of these tech companies, you know, she was talking about writing code in in R and and there's a software called SAS SAS statistical analysis systems or software. I can't remember the w Cale

Corbett: Right. Right. Yeah. Terry

Hale: And I was like, you're you're a developer, like you're just as much as you're a data person. And you know, and I was kind of learning web development. And then she actually like so she got hired by Ackerman because of her data experience and you know, because there's like that whole concept of viral content at the time. That was kind of the big one of the big buzzwords, it's making content Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: go viral. She has a background in epidemiology, studying basically, you know, studying diseases and and how those things spread. And so there was a natural overlap there. and we kind of helped encourage each other to to take the you know, take that leap into that, you know. Cale

Corbett: You know, here's the interesting thing. I I d one of the things that you said again, I love how you've got these little nuggets that that that expand and touch on so many different things. And and I I know you're probably aware of them. Being the autodidact that you are and being the intellectually curious person like me that you are, you were already aware of these. And I and I'm gonna talk about a couple of those in a minute, but what you were just talking about there flying a couple of things in my head. And that first one was you said, you know, hey, my wife is a programmer. It it was it it it's been a long time now since I learned this, but there are more programmers out there in the world than we think because there are folks like your wife. There are folks who one of the guys who's been my best friend for a long, long time, he's an astro astrophysicist, okay, by trade, mathematician, astrophysicist, and things like that. He's out there studying dark matter and all sorts of other things, you know, physics and you know, all that. So here's the deal. He has to code a lot of the tools he needs in order to analyze the data he's collecting from the universe, radio waves, you know, signals, all this sort of thing. He's had to go in for, you know, 30 years now, or 25 years anyway, coding the analytics and the st and all the tools that he needs in order to get something out of his data that's useful because everything he does is so boutique to an extent that. He can't buy an off the shelf package and have it do what he needs it to do, right? Even though it's astro Terry

Hale: Yeah. Yeah. Cale

Corbett: you know, astrophysics, you'd think there would be a lot of tools out there. There are, but there aren't. Okay. And I imagine Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: your wife is in the same her career, same boat, same reason, right? And those are just two examples. Terry

Hale: Yeah. Yeah, a lot of the Yeah, or yeah, just because, you know, yeah, there might be tools out there, but usually those tools are deliver the you know, the data might be stored differently or captured in a different system or the databases might not be the the the one of the things that she used to have to do a lot was clean the data. you know, sh the one time I think she worked for the Department of Health and you know, she was having to clean rec you know, these multi-million record databases and get the data, you know, consistent and make you know, and checking, making sure that there, you know, that there wasn't missing gaps that were affecting their her analysis and things of that nature. Cale

Corbett: W or stuff that's der dirty data that skews the analysis and and gives misleading signals, right? Says there's a pandemic of of Ebola in in Cleveland. Well now there's no there's no Ebola in Cleveland, Terry

Hale: Yeah. Yeah. Cale

Corbett: but I mean you know, right? the other thing the other thing was how do I say this? it was the memes. You were talking about the you're talking about this what you were essentially referring to was memes. And I forget When it was Richard Dawkins was, you know, the selfish gene from the late 70s, early 80s, that book. there was a take later on where he was talking about how memes are actually basically when things go viral, it's the same mechanism as the way genes work and how viruses work and how RNA or DNA are spread. Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: It's like literally mirror for mirror, pound for pound the same. And that blew my mind to think about a little piece of cultural DNA for lack of a better term, is spread the same way as actual, Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: you know, genetic code. And I just that was a that was a now that I know moment of a long time ago now. But I when you mentioned that, I'm like, yeah, I want to I wanna see if you'd ever heard about that. Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: you know, let me ask you this. So so the one thing I want to kind of get a sense of, and this is Comparing you to me to see if you've had some of the same situations I have. for my for my part, as I've as I've navigated this career of so many different things that I I if I look back and look at them in retrospect, they're all along a continuum and they're all along largely the same discipline. Some stick above the line, some stick below the line, but they are kind of in the same wheelhouse, you might say. But there have been several points in my career where I've had, or my life for that matter, where I've had what I call inflection points. Where and I really do think it's, you know, some people say there's that selection bias where you you look back and you see things that weren't there because you made a decision that led you to believe it was the Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: I truly believe that there are times when your brain or whatever other stimuli it is signals you that says, Hey dummy, take a minute. Recognize this for what it is. This is an inflection point. This is an A or a B, a left or a right. You know, I'm not gonna tell you which one's correct. my bra you know, my brain's not gonna tell, you know, I'm not gonna tell you which way to go, but hold on two seconds, think and make a decision. I've had that happen so many times in my career, and I've had myself where I've gone A and it worked out awesome. I've had situations where I said, You know, I'm gonna sit on this one and sitting on it wound up pushing me down path B. Because if you don't if you don't make a decision, life will will go ahead and make one for you. Right. So let's say I Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: I will I let B I let B happen to me. Each time I let B path take me, I've been laid off, Terry. I kid you not. One hundred percent of the time, every time I sit, I'll stick it out, or I won't go pursue that new. role or I won't learn that new skill or whatever. I'll just kind of sit, I'll stand pat. Every time I've stood pat, I'm telling you, three months later, a year later, eighteen months later, every time. So I tell Terry

Hale: Yep. Cale

Corbett: you, it only takes this dummy three times to learn, Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: make a decision, go with A. I don't know if you've ever, Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: if that's lit your brain up the same way. Terry

Hale: Yeah, yeah, there's been several times. So one of it was whenever I left one of the the company I went to aft right after I worked at all shore. So whenever I so and I basically is like I was kind of unhappy with the kind of the way that that that not all shore but the the other company that I joined after about two years. I just didn't like the direction that the leader of that company was was taking things and I was like, you know, I can either You know, stick it out, be miserable. I can go and find something else at another place and maybe be miserable, maybe not, or I can try and kind of jump off onto my into my own thing. And I ended up taking the option C, you know, jump off into try to do my own thing. And I and I did it Cale

Corbett: Mm. Terry

Hale: for about a year relatively successfully. And then I hit another inflection point, which was my wife was working at Ackerman and they were needing an app built. And I was like, Well, I could probably, you know, I didn't exactly know how to do it at the time, but I was like, I could figure it out. I I think I'm smart enough to figure it out. And so it's like, well yeah, I'm I'll take on that project and and and then that ended up leading to kind of that full time job there. And then I hit another inflection point there 'cause one of their their clients was a is was a a pretty divisive political organization and I just have I just I Cale

Corbett: Mm. Terry

Hale: couldn't stomach the the the type of work that we were doing and I didn't agree with the mission that the the And I was like, I I just can't do it anymore. And so that's when I and and I was like, Cale

Corbett: That's important. Terry

Hale: and I'm and I miss and I missed leading and and you know, because I was leading processes and leading through influence, but I really missed having that kind of authority to to help lead a a team. And Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: and I ended up that's when I ended up going to work at Big Wing. And that was like a whole other situation too, because when I started at that company, I was who I walked I was and I knew I was walking into it. It was the the mess was the part that excited me. is basically the entire web development so they were a digital marketing agency attached to the Oklahoma newspaper. And the entire Cale

Corbett: okay. Terry

Hale: web development team except for one developer, including the manager I was replacing, had resigned basically out of out of fr I I think for out of ref frustration. Cale

Corbett: yeah. Terry

Hale: you know, so it's for because, you know I and I don't I can't remember all the specifics on what on what triggered the the master resignation or whatever, but so I I s I joined I went there 'cause I was like, yeah, no, like you see my in my in my LinkedIn profile now I kinda have your chaos is my opportunity. Cale

Corbett: yes. Okay, that's what that well okay, that's what that refers to. Okay, I've seen that. Yeah. Yeah. Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cause you know, 'cause it was chaotic situation. You know, that the team had burnt a the at the time they'd burnt a lot of their political capital with the with their peer groups, 'cause, you know, they we were building websites and then they had a a content marketing team. So they were writing content, you know, blog content that would go on these websites that we were building. And then they had a social media team that would they were writing social media posts that were driving traffic to these, you know, to the through their sales funnels. That was usually on our webs, the websites we were building. And then they also had Paid search and display and SEO team. So the SEO team, they were optimizing the sites that we were building for SEO and doing paid Cale

Corbett: Right. Right. Terry

Hale: ads to drive traffic. you know, and so for all that to work effectively, you know, w we were actually kind of a loss leader for them when I started because they made more money on all that other stuff. which is kind of which was in a way kind of backwards in my opinion. so I thought what Cale

Corbett: Is I was gonna say that's not typical for you know, yeah. Yeah. Terry

Hale: Yeah. So one of the things I was charged with was actually making that department profitable again. Or to begin with, I don't know if they had ever actually technically been profitable because, you know, web development resources are expensive and they were attached to the newspaper and a lot of the salespeople were used to selling cheap newspaper ads and it was a number, it was a volume game. Yeah. Cale

Corbett: Right. You're hitting, hitting, hitting, hitting. Yeah. Terry

Hale: And so when I started, you know, I have I ended up having like, you know. what so I had several goals. One was I needed to retain the one developer that that was brave enough to stay and stick it in it to see what would what the next person would bring. Cale

Corbett: Huh huh. Right. Terry

Hale: and I'm so thankful that he did that. because if he would have left, I would have had n no institutional knowledge to you know, I wouldn't have been able to be successful at at that, at least not in the way that we ended up being. and then it was Cale

Corbett: I just gonna say you yeah. Terry

Hale: r repaired relationships with managers in the other departments because the person that I replaced, they'd always been in conflict with each other. and then and then and then build the team again, basically and and and make it profitable. And and so that's so what I did. I you know we had the one developer that stayed and I was able to retain him I remember about two weeks later about two weeks after I started he was like, you know, I I was I'd been thinking about putting in my resignation and even, you know, even not knowing you and ha and stuff. And he's like, but you know, I he's like I I think I'm I'm I think I'm gonna stick it out and I'm I'm glad you're here. Cale

Corbett: s that that part right there, how do I say this? You you made a decision and you went down that path and that path was going to take you wherever it was, but it you at that pay stage in that path, there was a person who gratified you by saying, Yeah, you made the right choice. That that was your takeaway. I wish we as human beings had more people who would do that for us, recognize and he probably didn't even recognize the need. He just organically said, Dude, you did really well. But the fact that he said that to you probably when you needed that that amplification, you've never forgotten it, right? And that was what, ten years ago probably? You know? Terry

Hale: Yeah. yeah, no, it was a huge yeah, that was yeah, it was been yeah, almost ten years ago. And yeah, I mean that that was a huge confidence boost to like, okay, I'm doing the right things to retain him because he was a really talented, talented guy. You know, and then we ended up the next guy we brought on, it was actually somebody that used to work on the newspaper side on some of their web properties that he had left and then was kind of boomeranged back. and that my boss knew. And I was like, Okay, I can build some political capital with with her, some additional capital with her by bringing on this person that she knows and she'll kind of feel like she has an insider. And he ended up being a great hire. and then we ended up we had been outsourcing our design work and our the designer that we were using, he just wasn't meeting our needs. he could be really defensive on if you gave him critical feedback on his designs and it just didn't Cale

Corbett: yeah. Terry

Hale: un unfortunately. I mean he was very talented. you know, you the work he did the work itself was high quality, but sometimes it it wasn't the quality that was the problem. It was hey, this isn't meeting what the client it's very specific, reasonable things. It wasn't like it was a client that was like, I need You know, all these unreasonable things like the the one that's kind of the straw that broke the camel's back was we were working on a website for a septic tank installation company. And one of the things in one of the discovery meetings with their leadership there was, you know, they were like, We know we're going into these yards, you know, installing septic tanks, it's a messy business. We go in and we tear up their yards and we take pride in trying to leave Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: it in as good a shape as we can. And we want that reflected on Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: our so we want a very clean looking website. And the design Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: I got back. and I'd made that extremely clear to the the developer, but he he got almost too creative with it. Like I said, from a design standpoint, it was well executed, but it had these big streaks of brown across the site. And he was trying to you when talking to me, he was why trying to make it look like, you know, like an excavator scraping up dirt. But depending on your perspective, it could also look like somebody smeared, you know, you know, Cale

Corbett: Yeah, it didn't look like that. Right. Well, let's I need I need to stop you for one second, put up continue this anecdote here, and and the reason I'm over here hiding behind my hand is because you had shared this with me at the coffee shop last week, and I had so many potty puns rolling through my head that I had to go Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: and you of course you knew them first because we're trying to keep this podcast. I'd keep it safe for work. I don't wanna have to echo out all the Terry

Hale: yeah, yeah. Cale

Corbett: the you know the that was a blanky job. I I I don't know how never mind the fact that you had the let's call him a pre Madonna resource there, you know, who was sensitive about his work. I don't know how you kept it kept yourself together in a conference call or in a meeting where all these crap jokes were just making themselves, you know, flares. I don't Terry

Hale: Yeah. It was Cale

Corbett: know how, you know Terry

Hale: Yeah. Well and I I think that honestly because I like so it wasn't you've kind of heard the phrase like I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed. It was kind of how I was because it's like Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Yeah. Terry

Hale: I I always trying to do and you know the in the but it just it yeah I was like I I because yeah I was like dancing around the terms like I don't want to say it because that your design doesn't look like you know crap from a design your the quality isn't Cale

Corbett: Your your design is your design is blank. Terry

Hale: that yeah but it looks but it literally looks like there's that on the design. And so and yeah, and so then after that, Cale

Corbett: Yeah, you're you're like, Terry

Hale: yeah, so after that I told my bosses like we've got to bring our design back in-house. We've got to get somebody in house that knows that. And then I ended up hiring a fantastic person, fantastic woman that probably still the most talented UX and designer that I've ever worked with, brought her on. you know, and and one of the things I kept rem realizing I was doing is I was hiring not just around around not just the organization's weakness, you know, like you know, we had we were weak in design because we didn't have it in-house, Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: but I was also able to hire around my own personal weaknesses as well. Cale

Corbett: Right there. Right there. Terry

Hale: And and build people around me because, you know, I'm not I'm not perfect. And then make sure that they had the you know the the psychological safety to speak up whenever they needed to, you know, about something I was doing, defending them whenever somebody was being unreasonable on another team. which is extremely important when you're working on a on cross functional teams like that is is you you you know, you have to protect your team to a re to a a reasonable degree. You know, what another Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: like so I have so many stories from that place. Cale

Corbett: your role is not only to care and feed for, but it is to challenge your team to grow. and I and I'm gonna jump in and share, I'm gonna sort in and I see what you think. I had a boss who his one of the phrases he kept repeating to me and and I finally got it after you know, later, he said he said, You're being too nice. To the team, to your team members. I'm like, what do you mean I'm being too nice? I'm not, you know, there was a guy that hit my boss's boss was a was a just an unalloyed a hole. He just truly, his management style was my way, the highway, and he was just an a hole, period. And he Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: he was an A, I think as a person, he wasn't an A hole, but that was the role he played. And he even said to us one time, he dropped the van, so this is a this is a persona I put on. It's like, why? And he never did tell us. why he chose that persona, but I have to think I found the book he read or the business school he went to where Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: he thought that he had to put on that mask. And it's like, dude, you're just being an asshole. You're just being a jerk. Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: Right. And so when my boss said you're being too nice, I said, I please, I hope you're not telling me that I gotta be like your boss. He goes, No, but you're being too you're being too nice. And but he wouldn't tell me what that meant. He's he he thought I knew what that meant. And I'm like, man, I am not getting it. I found out I found out to myself later. I had a now that I know moment later. What he was referring to, it wasn't he wasn't talking about how I present myself to my team. It was when my team members had a growth moment, they had something that they needed to to to get fixed or they had an opportunity for improvement or they needed to hear something direct from me. I was never I was never forthright with them about what they needed to learn. I would always soften Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: it or I would always package it up and try to be dramatic. He goes, what he was telling me was is give it to them straight, give it to them quick, but let Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: them let them work on it. Don't don't do it for them. Don't don't sugarcoat it. Don't hide it. Let them have it. Right. Because kindness, you can be kind and direct. Kindness is being direct, Terry

Hale: Yep, there's a difference between being Cale

Corbett: you know. Terry

Hale: yep. There's a I can't remember where I heard it from or it's not an original thought, but but there was somewhere I read one time that there's a difference between being nice and being kind. So you can Cale

Corbett: Yes. Terry

Hale: be if you're you're you can be too nice, but sometimes that's not being kind. And and that actually I had that Cale

Corbett: Right. If he has Terry

Hale: happen when I was when I was there actually, I had one of my team members it was you know the the whole time I was there, I built I ended up building up a team to like I think six or seven people total, counting myself. I only ever had one person voluntarily leave the team and I was partially because I encouraged her to explore the opportunity because it was a better opportunity for her career growth and things like that. And I remember she was super hesitant. I I ended up through a back channel finding out that she was, you know, had this opportunity to interview at this other company. and I once I found out, I was like, Well, you you can Trying to encourage her one to talk to me. I'm not going to be mad at her for I'm not going to see it as disloyalty. I said if anything, I'll be more upset if she doesn't at least take an interview and hear what they have to say. Cale

Corbett: I yeah. Terry

Hale: because, you know, you know, I I would hate to lose them because they were a key part of my team, but it, you know, we'll we'll survive and I don't want to derail somebody's you know, you know, and and it was a massive pay increase for her as well. Like it was gonna be a huge pay bump, but a little bit more tech more larger scope of work, you know, the projects were gonna Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: be bigger than just like a small marketing sites and things like that. And I was like, that it would be Cale

Corbett: It was an inflection point for her that you recognized. Terry

Hale: Yes. And I was like and I made sure to get it to her as well. and then there was another time one of my team members, so he'd he had he'd just been really kind of slacking. I ended up having to kinda pull him off to the side and it was just like I ha I love working with you, you do great work, but I was like lately I just I feel like you're not wanting to be a part of the team. because Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: you know, they were you know, and it wasn't entirely that person's fault. you know, there was they had some ch health challenges that were that were that were a factor in it. you know, so I kept that in mind, you know, 'cause we'd been working with them on accommodations and stuff. And then the the only other time I had r I only had one involuntary turnover, which was that person ca after we worked with them for a long time I ended up one of our newer hires, who is self-taught, non non-traditional hire, had also like she was the person I was like, that that's gonna be my replacement whenever I'm ready to to go somewhere. And this was the moment Cale

Corbett: Right. Yeah. Terry

Hale: that actually kind of proved that to me was we were in a stand up and that person that was struggling wasn't there and it was really starting to impact the rest of the team. you know, and that person was op that person that was there that that wasn't there were, you know, they'd been open with their their health condition and stuff like that. but she was like, what are we gonna address that? She's like, it's really impacting the rest of us. And I was like, Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: kind of took a deep breath and I was like, you're right. you know, let me see what what we can do. And unfortunately, you know, we had to let him go. But I was like, I'll be a reference for you. I can this isn't an indictment of you personally. It's it's it's Cale

Corbett: It's a fit thing. Terry

Hale: know, 'cause one of the things with accommodations is yeah, and it and it's one of the things, you know, when you get accommodations, the one of the things is, you know, that they they can't create an undue hardship on the organization. and it Cale

Corbett: Right. Terry

Hale: was it had finally gotten to the point where it was creating that hardship. I mean, I felt awful whenever we had to to deliver that news to him, but he he was completely I mean, he understood. He wasn't he wasn't angry. I mean we've we still talk and and things like that. you know, outside that 'cause you know, I cared about him as a human being. Cale

Corbett: I'm sure he was disappointed. I'm I'm sure he was disappointed, no doubt, but it was it it was a situation where it wasn't it wasn't his it wasn't his disability, if you will, that was the issue. And that and I'm sure that's something that you also I know Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: you made it 'cause a human you made it clear, but I think from a liability perspective too, you know, ADA and all that, you had to make sure that it was understood, it was documented. Again, not not from a cynical perspective, but hey, it had become the Terry

Hale: Exactly. Cale

Corbett: point where the accommodation had become larger than the value add. And so the business had to make a decision that was not about the human. It was about the bottom line. you know. Terry

Hale: Yeah. Exactly. And I think that and I think it also helped give him kind of the kick he needed to get some of the additional help. And and take to take the time the act to act, 'cause I think part of it too is he he he f he didn't because he liked the working on the team so much, he wouldn't take he he wasn't able he didn't feel personally able to like take the time he needed to to get himself, you know, healthy through through FMLA or whatever. I mean he had taken some of that. Cale

Corbett: right. Yeah, yeah. Terry

Hale: And so I think it ended up creating that inflection point, you know, that you talk about even for him is like, okay, I need you know, so I think he took the time to get you know, to get the the help the help and stuff that he needed and and he he's thriving in it then the j you know, last I've heard from him, I actually know his current boss now. I mean he he's thriving at his at his at his role that he's at now. Cale

Corbett: I like I like I like the happy ending part of that. Terry, what I'm going to do is I'm I'm we could talk, we could talk all day. Now what we're gonna do is we're gonna do we're gonna Terry

Hale: yeah. Cale

Corbett: do more of this. We're gonna do more of this in the future. what I wanna do is I wanna bring us to I'm gonna start it. I'm gonna practice this. You're gonna be the guinea pig, if you will. I'm gonna work on this with Terry

Hale: Sure. Cale

Corbett: I'm gonna workshop this as an ending of the podcast and we'll see how how it lands. So to kind of go back to the now that I know premise. What I'd love for you to do is share something that you've learned about anything. You know, whatever that you've learned something neat or fun or interesting or edifying, let's say in the last week or two, something that you've read or heard about that you thought was really cool, you know, now that you know what, what was that thing that you learned that's that's really cool you want to share with people? And we'll give a link if there is one. Terry

Hale: Yeah, man, so this week, trying to think. that's tough. Because I guess part of it is is lately. Yeah, no, no, you're good. I I don't know Cale

Corbett: I didn't mean to I didn't mean to I didn't mean to stick I didn't mean to catch I didn't mean to catch you off guard there, sorry. Yeah. Terry

Hale: if I have a link for it, but lately I've been reading about a lot of the parallels between kind of the situation we find ourselves in now and and the industrial revolution back in the eighteenth and early nineteenth century. you know, it it kinda you know, and talking going through some of that. You know, that was a very painful technological transition for a lot of people. And there was there was kind of two groups there was and and despite what a lot of people believe, the people that they called like the Luddites, they they weren't anti Cale

Corbett: Mm-hmm. Terry

Hale: technology. They just wanted to have a say in how it was implemented. and s and it Cale

Corbett: There you go. Yes, yes, that's correct. Yeah. Terry

Hale: and so one of the things though that I learned is as the way those the the changes that finally happened, one, they took a long time and they were painful. and two, it it you you can't wait for your government or or policy and things like that to save you. You have to band together yourself first and then that's what drives that change. And I and they they Cale

Corbett: Right. Terry

Hale: were called I can't remember what they called them. They weren't the friendly societies. That's what they called them back in in in Europe that started they were basically like proto unions. So at the time unions were illegal there like not just you you didn't have that right to associate and and strike and stuff. So they Cale

Corbett: Mm. Terry

Hale: created these unions. They had dues and they were exclusive by nature. And not to be exclusive as in they were how do you say it like elitist or anything like that but Cale

Corbett: Mm-hmm. Terry

Hale: they wanted people that were in there that kind of understood the same and we've kind of created that with it kind of in organically in a natural way with this this Slack group that I was talking about earlier that I've been promoting so much on LinkedIn. You know, and what those did is they helped build those safety nets. They were, you know, the membership was kind of local. They vetted, they made sure Cale

Corbett: I think here in America they called the mutual aid societies. Terry

Hale: Yeah, very very similar. I think like the Oddfellows were Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: were one of the original ones, I think. you know, but basically, membership was local and vetted. The employers weren't allowed to be members so that people could speak freely. They even avoided talking politics and religion just so that because everybody has has reason and has reasonable differences on the in and what they believe on those things. you know, so that Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Yeah. Terry

Hale: kept the room usable and then and you know, and trust was that asset and they protected that by being exclusive. So I guess one thing I now that I know about that and one thing that I'm gonna be more intentional about, kind of promoting it in that way is that one you you can't wait for policy to catch up. You're gonna have to band together as as individuals with like minded individuals and people that are in the same position as you to one help each other. You know, what one of some of those societies they took dues. We don't do that in our group or anything, but they they took dues and that money would be used like if somebody had a a medical issue that they couldn't pay for that that would get drawn out of that those dues that the members paid. You know, they help set up trainings and things like that, which is something that we do. you know, they they had places where they would help teach people, you know, they they the two places where the people would gather was at their the chapels and pubs. you know, Cale

Corbett: Right. Terry

Hale: a lot of the place meetings were, you above the pubs. And that's where, you know, people learned to you know, at the time that l illiteracy was a big thing. So they learned to to read Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: and to how to speak and then how to organize, which, you know, that's also why so many early union leaders were lay preachers, you know, they were Cale

Corbett: Well say they were ministers or they they were people who were used to communicating big ideas to large crowds and motivating to action, you know. community organizers we call them today, you know, right? Terry

Hale: Yeah, and in a way that was and digest people. Yep. Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, because I'm kind of finding out, you know, that self improvement works better in a room, not not alone. so Cale

Corbett: so I'm gonna have to go unpack that because it sounds like a conflict, it sounds like a dichotomy. You know, self-improvement is better in a room than alone. You often think of self improv y you know I'm going I'm reading a Tony Robbins book or I'm doing you know, I'm I'm making joke a joke, but you know, self improvement is a solo activity, but you're saying, Well, no, it's not. You're going to improve by getting with people who challenge you to learn something new or where you could bring something new to the table to to build them up, right? Terry

Hale: Yeah. say like early guilds are an example of that. Like the mechanics institute back in the day would have been an example of that. It was basically peers teaching Cale

Corbett: yeah. Terry

Hale: peers. So people that have been through it before, like, hey, here's the here's the pitfalls, then the here's the mistakes new people make that we don't want you to make the same mistake. or you know, here's so it was it was very much a Let me teach you how to do it. So it's kind of more of a classroom. You know, you go and take classes. A lot of times it's for self-impro sometimes it's to learn a skill, but a lot of times it's, you know, people will take self-improvement classes and you're not doing that by yourself. You're in a room Cale

Corbett: true. Terry

Hale: with others. Cale

Corbett: That's true. Let me ask you this. I'm gonna I'm gonna give you I love I love this this where you're taking this. Okay. So it's clear to me, Terry, what you built it for and what has it given you back? Terry

Hale: well Because you know, I I I love mentoring people and and driving people towards a cause. That that's one of the things that I've realized I I I'm good at, I guess. Not and not out of a sense of ego. It's just something I truly like serving other people through my leadership. and it's kind of given me since you know, I've I've been in un unemployed now almost a over a little bit over a year now, longest I've ever gone in my entire since I was sixteen without, you know, earning a a paycheck. And Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: it's one thing it's given me is kind of a sense of purpose and direction and normalcy. Like, you know, as much as people People are like, this is so great. Thank you for doing this. Like I don't think some of those people realize how much it's, you know, helped me as a as a person as well be you know, help find my voice to some extent and and and really just help kind of keep me sane and and having a a purpose. You know, that's not a work purpose. Like I've been well, I've never been one to derive my identity from my job title or my my work. But more of how I am as a person. And this is one of those places where I feel like I can be who I am. and it's kind of allowed me to keep doing that. And it really helped kind of rebuild my confidence. not that the layoff at Oracle wasn't what crushed my confidence. It was all the stuff at Oracle before that. You know, I wasn't very happy there Cale

Corbett: Mm. Terry

Hale: most of my my tenure there. because some of my health issues, I've kind of felt like I was handcuffed by my healthcare and my and my dis in my benefits to to be able Cale

Corbett: yeah. Right. Terry

Hale: to co use that as an infliction point to go find another another role. There was just so much risk there. It Cale

Corbett: right. Yeah. The benefits the benefits pardon me out. The benefits out yeah. You you were you were. You were handcuffed. You were stuck because the work wasn't gratifying. You we'll talk Maslow, right? I mean the gr the work wasn't Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: help the work wasn't getting it done, but you had this foundation that was providing you some safety. And so that was as far Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: as you could get. You couldn't get to the upper echelons of the Maslow hierarchy with with realization and all that. you were stuck at the you know, I call keeping the wheels on the bus level, you know. Yeah. Terry

Hale: Exactly. Cale

Corbett: Yeah. And that is not a way to live, man. That is you that will grind you down so fast, you know, you know. Terry

Hale: yeah. Despite all the the financial challenges, only having a single income is, you know, b cause basically our household income was cut in half when I got laid off. Thankfully my we Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: make my wife is gainfully employed and she's been s she's been an amazing supportive person through this and makes enough to Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: keep the lights on. but that aside, my my not only my mental health, but how much it was even impacting some of my physical health. Like my mental and physical health is still way, way better even with that extra stress and insecurity that comes fr by not being in that environment that didn't that didn't fit how I am Cale

Corbett: you Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: and I are positive people and What I heard you say is, you know what, no one wants to get laid off. But I think once you are in your new role, whatever that is, you're going to be able to look back on being let go from Oracle and say, that was a net positive. I needed that, Terry

Hale: yeah, Cale

Corbett: like your ADA employee. I needed to be kicked out of the nest. I would have rather it been done a certain way differently than the way they did it. I wouldn't like to have been out of the nest as long as I was, all that jazz. Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: But it was a a positive thing that happened to me, net net from for my for my physical well-being, mental well-being, all that. So I you already you already know a. Terry

Hale: part of the there's that concept of a hero's journey, you know, it's just part of not the Cale

Corbett: That's it. Terry

Hale: calling my not trying to call myself a hero, but it's you know, I'm on my own my own journey. and it's just another Cale

Corbett: No, I gotcha, but you're You're right. Now Terry

Hale: step on that. Cale

Corbett: don't be don't be Frodo and forget, you know, be not willing to throw the ring in the fire, man. Go ahead and throw the ring in. Yeah, yeah, don't don't Terry

Hale: yeah, yeah. Cale

Corbett: make Gollum come bite your finger off the yeah, that's our little Lord of the Rings there. Terry

Hale: Yeah. Well and I think I was more like Proto while I was stuck at Oracle. The not being willing Cale

Corbett: Yeah. Terry

Hale: to throw that that ring. It was the was the benefits and the security that having that job ev Cale

Corbett: Right. Right. Terry

Hale: even if it was ruining even if I was turning into a you know a you know, a shadow creature. Yeah. Cale

Corbett: Smeagle or or Gollum. Well here's the thing. I was gonna say maybe H we have to end this podcast on God. I Terry

Hale: Yep, yep. Cale

Corbett: was gonna say maybe HR was Gollum and it's the one HR bit off your finger, so it saves I don't know, but yeah. Terry

Hale: Yeah. Cale

Corbett: Yeah, who knows? Well anyway, all right. So we're gonna end it here, Terry. Thank you for being on. Thank you for being the first guest. And if you being on didn't scare the people from joining, I hope we'll have more people come on. And then you and I we're gonna do we'll have you come back on and and we'll get Mindy, you know, we'll do a three way conversation because I think there's some some ground between, you know, Mindy and you that I wouldn't even begin to know So we'll we'll do this again. Terry

Hale: no, I'd love that. Yeah, I'd love to do that and thank you for having me.